I don’t consider myself to be a feminist.
Quite the opposite, in fact. I am a self-proclaimed male chauvinist quite often!
I hold some feminist attitudes, but by and large, I think men (or male-identified, whatever) and women are different, and what’s more, I like it that way.
Here’s the thing. As a culture, we queers (especially the born-female variety) tend to be a little touchy about things like feminism. We tend to jump to conclusions when any of us behave in ways that seem heteronormative… at least as long as we’re not talking about a person’s gender identity, and we are talking about the things we find unappealing about straight biomen.
I’m being vague – let me get more specific.
Ivan Coyote wrote a piece about finding it hot to see two supposedly straight women start making out. I’ve seen a lot of outcry about this article, and I’m frankly a little puzzled by it.
I’m a high femme, and I would have found it hot to see!
I’ve heard perspectives from both femmes and butches on this, and the consensus seems to be that Ivan is acting like a straight man by asking two femmes to make out.
What the fuck?
Everyone seems to be under the assumption that Ivan is objectifying femmes by behaving this way.
Well, okay, maybe. But here’s the thing, from my perspective.
Everyone objectifies what they find attractive.
You can’t say you’re only attracted to femmes without creating a mental image of what femme is to you, and by doing so, most people are talking about the physical manifestations of that identity. At least in large part.
You can’t say you’re only attracted to butches without doing the same thing.
Each of us, to find what we like and are drawn to, creates an ideal, if you will, of that particular “type.” A type isn’t a person. No feelings, no intellect, no hopes or dreams or desires. It’s a thing, an object. Ergo, having a type is objectifying.
Not only do I believe all of that to be true, but I think there’s an inter-community double standard being applied here.
I’ve seen lots and lots of girls like me talk about how hot it is to see two butches making out. Or two transguys. Or two insert-your-same-on-same-preference-here. I’ve known lots of lesbians who really, really get off on gay male porn.
I’ve never once heard anyone bitch about how those girls are objectifying their male or masculine-identified counterparts. Not. Once.
So it’s okay to rake some poor guy over the coals about thinking it’s hot to see two femmes, or straight women, making out, but it’s not okay to take a chick to task over liking to see two butches engaged the same way?
Maybe I’m the one missing the point, but Ivan spent a lot of time in that article explaining that it isn’t only femme-on-femme or girl-on-girl action that gets her hot and bothered. Doesn’t a dude get any credit at all for it being about the queerness of the event itself, rather than focusing on the gender expression of the people involved?
And by the way, why is it Ivan’s fault if these women are agreeing to going along with the experiment?
For a community who seems to be all wrapped up in female empowerment, it seems like everyone’s being pretty damn protective of those helpless little girls who are going along with this butch fantasy that is so bad and wrong.
The experiment is an exchange. Ivan’s making out with another butch in trade. No one’s being forced into anything. Everyone has the opportunity to say no.
Hell, I would have gone for that, back in my bar-hopping single days.
For a community that prides itself on being sex-positive, everyone seems to be hell-bent on telling Ivan that what turns her on shouldn’t turn her on.
For me, it comes down to a handful of things. A) It’s not my place to tell someone else that they shouldn’t find (insert your person/type/activity/kink here) attractive. B) As long as everyone involved is a consenting adult, who cares? C) It’s a fairly typical male characteristic to be visually stimulated. This is why guys like porn. So why is anyone surprised that guys like live porn, too?
I wouldn’t take it badly if a butch asked me to make out with a femme buddy. Six years ago, I would have just said yes, as long as they were willing to do the same. Now, I’m married and monogamous.
I’d say no.
But I’d be amused and complimented as hell.
Looking for more? Check out the joint blog, filled with gushy marital ad nauseum, at This Side of the High Speed Rodeo. You can also find me sounding off as a Guest Lesbian, at Card Carrying Lesbian, on my adventures as a transwife in an oh-so-straight world.
But being a chauvinist isn’t being glad that women and men are separate. It’s believing that men are better than women. Unless there’s some alternate definition of chauvinist I don’t know about…? And feminism doesn’t claim that mean and women are identical, just that they’re equal.
Also, I just saw Ivan perform that piece. It was very hot. And the whole room was laughing and agreeing, femmes and butches alike, so I’m actually surprised it raised so much controversy. People like seeing two people they’re attracted to making out. There’s nothing wrong with that, especially when it’s reciprocal! If you ever get a chance to see Ivan live, especially with SweLL, I highly recommend it.
a. I think you are a feminist, even if you dislike the title because feminism is simply the idea that men and women are equal, not that we are carbon copies of one another. You seem to believe that, yes? That being male doesn’t make Rhett BETTER than you, but different?
b. Actually we don’t ALL objectify what we find attractive. I can’t be the only one who thinks the way that I do, surely? I don’t find other people engaging in sex, or sexual behaviors like kissing, “hot”. I find it uncomfortable. I’m not judging those who do it or who find it hot- to each their own. For me, a person isn’t truly hot until I know them. Oh sure, there are butches I see a photo of and say “Oh, yeah – SHE is hot!” but that physical attractiveness is only the first part of the story. ONLY the first part. There is so much more. I can recognize someone’s (physical) attractiveness without objectifying them. Of course, I also don’t go on to add anything else to it – no wish for what they might do if we were alone, etc. To me, sex and sexuality are intensely person-specific.
Perhaps if I’d seen the performance, I might have a different perspective – reading things doesn’t always translate. However, I have another femme friend who WAS there and she said it was quite disturbing to her. I don’t know. I know this: respect is hot. Degrading women for someone else’s entertainment is never hot. And that is how the piece that I read felt: degrading.
Who knew that there would come a time when *I*, of all people, might be called a prude? Huh.
Oh, and PS: I’m not in any way telling Ivan what should turn her on. I’m all about freedom of expression. I may choose not to read her stuff (I don’t know, this was the first of hers I’ve read) but that’s my choice. There’s a place for all of us in this world. That whole constitutional right to free speech has to mean even the things that make me sick at the stomach – not just the ones with which I agree.
And this is why we are going to be friends for a long, long time. Because I really like hearing what you have to say when you agree with me, but I like it when you DISAGREE even more!